tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post5908522712025009908..comments2023-06-23T23:34:17.747+01:00Comments on Bono and Jesus: Twenty Major and the Race Questionsamcreahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17636039390416639032noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-2119199725796111192008-05-23T12:07:00.000+01:002008-05-23T12:07:00.000+01:00I'm reading from the start so bear with me, it's n...I'm reading from the start so bear with me, it's not often I can actualy add any useful information to any discussion but here goes.<BR/><BR/>Swarthy - is sod all to do with the victorians, it's from the Germanic word Zwart. <BR/><BR/>I don't have any German of note but the Dutch for black is Zwart, and incidentally they have a nickname for a fall guy 'de zwarte pete' i.e. the poor black fella gets the blame.<BR/><BR/>there you go...Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11044403947730363259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-59391187755577722732008-02-01T21:10:00.000+00:002008-02-01T21:10:00.000+00:00HA HA HA.HA HA HA.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737478042607755796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-52144415509585455082008-02-01T11:19:00.000+00:002008-02-01T11:19:00.000+00:00chris Rock<A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxGuBeyQM2M" REL="nofollow">chris Rock</A>samcreahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636039390416639032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-1638422721275566122008-02-01T02:54:00.000+00:002008-02-01T02:54:00.000+00:00Hi JC and Sam, I know, I know - we should be finis...Hi JC and Sam, <BR/><BR/>I know, I know - we should be finished this. Anyhoo - just a quickie. JC, I understand exactly what you mean, but a literal dictionary interpretation often is not enough. The conversation started about the N word. I really don't think the literal or dictionary definition of the word is sufficient to convey the reasons that black people in particular find it so offensive. It is only when you look at it in historical and societal contexts that you understand the outrage of black people over the use of the word.<BR/><BR/>Language evolves and words that originally carried a literal meaning for one thing can often change to having a different meaning even though the word itself does not change.<BR/><BR/>The N word literally means "black" (Latin - niger). Black people have no problem being called black, but the N word has connotations connected with being considered below-human in some way that it is highly offensive.<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't you agree that all language uses connotations or baggage to go beyond literal meaning?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737478042607755796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-89106851411189952192008-01-31T15:07:00.000+00:002008-01-31T15:07:00.000+00:00You're working from an ideological base, is what I...You're working from an ideological base, is what I'm saying.<BR/>Now, I appreciate language carries within it all sorts of subjectivity.<BR/>As cnut has pointed out, some people believe 'Swarthy' auto-connotes racist perceptions of those described as such. They believe this because an ideology told them to.<BR/>However, and I do appreciate it isn't without human subjectivity, but not one of the dictionaries on my shelf define 'swarthy' in any way that it could be considered a racist epithet. Lacking ultimate objectivity on language, I'd argue the dictionaries come closest.<BR/>When Cnut, not that I'm having a go but he did my work for me here, started applying 'connotations' to the word, he invested it with his own subjective perspectives which tally closely with those of certain ideologies.<BR/>You know the ones - their Orwellian by nature, and authoritarian, telling us what to think about whom and what words to use to do so.<BR/>Tabloid media handily summarises them as PC.<BR/>Such ideologies, while useful in small doses when used to pry open closed neanderthal minds, have long since become destructive in closing minds that would otherwise be intelligent and open and not automatically start hitting the 'male white middle class guilt' button.<BR/>That's what I mean.<BR/>Sorry for banging on.JC Skinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07591722111393071007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-9062814367401320922008-01-31T03:27:00.000+00:002008-01-31T03:27:00.000+00:00"Not the sort of thought policing that replaces id...<I>"Not the sort of thought policing that replaces ideology for personal analysis."</I><BR/><BR/>I really dont understand what your saying here. But look thanks for the comments, and sorry if it was a bit waffeley(sp?) It was meant to be just an observation on the use of different words and their connotations.samcreahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636039390416639032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-92099777638204033582008-01-31T01:12:00.000+00:002008-01-31T01:12:00.000+00:00Not the sort of thought policing that replaces ide...Not the sort of thought policing that replaces ideology for personal analysis.<BR/>Those are the thought police you ought to shoot on sight. <BR/>Or, if it makes you happier, do at least try thinking more and typing big, long, but not as stupid as before replies.JC Skinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07591722111393071007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-58866002200119744692008-01-30T12:45:00.000+00:002008-01-30T12:45:00.000+00:00JC,To do so would that mean that I would end up th...JC,<BR/><BR/>To do so would that mean that I would end up thinking more? and therefore end up typing more big long stupid replies to other peoples blogs at 3am, I think maybe a bit of thought policing is called for!!<BR/><BR/>Cnut<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the clarification of the word Swarthy, I think maybe TM was thinking along same lines as you.samcreahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636039390416639032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-1731049628876400332008-01-30T06:54:00.000+00:002008-01-30T06:54:00.000+00:00He definitely meant Swarthy. And yes, it was defin...He definitely meant Swarthy. And yes, it was definitely racist, but that's OK. It was racist in the same way as say, a Scot might refer to the English as a bunch of effete sasanach bastards or that an Aussie might refer to a Kiwi as a flamin' sheep shagger.<BR/><BR/>The Swarthy reference goes beyond mere racism. As I am sure you are aware, popular literature from Victorian times on invested the word "Swarthy" with more than just a descrption of the depth of sun-tan. It has generally carried with it connotations of untrustworthiness and shiftiness that a literal translation of the word would not. Pirates, for example, were always referred to as Swarthy and indeed, any horny-handed son of toil might also be described thus.<BR/><BR/>So, the word goes beyond the literal meaning in that it carries some historical literary baggage with it, making it an apt term in the context of the piece.<BR/><BR/>In exactly the same way, the N word, as we seem to be calling it as a default, carries its own historical, societal and literary baggage. Anyone aware of this baggage would know that it is not an acceptable term in exactly the same way as Swarthy is (not to sound too Douglas Adams-esque).<BR/><BR/>Of course, it's possible I could be talking complete bollocks.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737478042607755796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9006091967874662136.post-33436173355579522162008-01-30T05:16:00.000+00:002008-01-30T05:16:00.000+00:00Oh, puh-lease do yourself a favour. Kill off the t...Oh, puh-lease do yourself a favour. Kill off the thought policeman in your head.JC Skinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07591722111393071007noreply@blogger.com